by Don Park
at 2004/01/14 06:20:06
After reading Mark Pilgrim's latest post in which he dragged XHTML into the bad feed handling discussion and tried to instigate a fight by making it look like Tim Bray insulted others, I felt pretty upset and my opinion of Mark dropped down a few notches. Then this morning, I found out via Dave that Mark is blocking traffic coming from Dave's blog. That drops my opinion of Mark down to the gutter so I removed him from my blogroll.
Put me on your blacklist too, Mark, because I finally had enough of your nasty antics. No matter how much fancy Python script you write, you'll never be able to refill those holes if you keep digging like that.
Comments
I am a bit curious about this Mark Pilgrim's story. I admit that I do not understand your point well (it's already 23.00, and I'm not on coffee anymore, so arrived a certain hour my brain ceases to function correctly)... anyway...
The thing that I understood is that (leaving alone the xhtml argument, and remembering that I am restating what I read here :) ...) Mark Pilgrim has started stating false things about Tim Bray only to underline his own point... (we say "to bring water to his own mill")...
Then he "blacklisted" Dave's World by bouncing back referrers from Dave's blog. While I understand that Mark stating false thing about Tim's opinion would be a decisive no-no (had an experience like that in november and it burned a lot, since one formerly good friend decided to lose me behaving like that), I fail to understand why Mark blocking someone else's link is a problem.
I mean, since we definitively need people reading our blogs to keep our ideas alive, Mark's block is an auto-goal, is like he is evirating himself to punish his wife who went to bed with someone else...
Now, can you explain more your point about the blocking?
The thing that I understood is that (leaving alone the xhtml argument, and remembering that I am restating what I read here :) ...) Mark Pilgrim has started stating false things about Tim Bray only to underline his own point... (we say "to bring water to his own mill")...
Then he "blacklisted" Dave's World by bouncing back referrers from Dave's blog. While I understand that Mark stating false thing about Tim's opinion would be a decisive no-no (had an experience like that in november and it burned a lot, since one formerly good friend decided to lose me behaving like that), I fail to understand why Mark blocking someone else's link is a problem.
I mean, since we definitively need people reading our blogs to keep our ideas alive, Mark's block is an auto-goal, is like he is evirating himself to punish his wife who went to bed with someone else...
Now, can you explain more your point about the blocking?
Anyway, I think everything revolves around the fact if you consider "Bozo" to be an insult at the same level as "Idiot" or not (see http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/01/11/PostelPilgrim and then http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment ...).
Tim writes a full paragraph using "Bozo" as a term to mark people who writes tool that produces broken xml. Also he writes "Anyone who can’t make a syndication feed that’s well-formed XML is an incompetent fool."...
IIRC (and I underline IIRC), Bozo in UK-English is quite a strong term, at the same level of fool/drunkard and idiot. Not at the same level of the three terms before (more "esplicit") but not something you would say to a complete stranger. Sylpheed "Bozo Filter" (Sylpheed is a mailer for the Gnome environment on Linux/Unix) is also translated in Italian with the same term "Idiot Filter"...
Regarding "Bozo" is definitively offensive if as a term in your culture is offensive. It is something like a word with a "borderline" meaning. Maybe for US-English Bozo is not such a strong word... but look at this page as well: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SetTheBozoBit
This is outside the fact that I would like that every single tool and author produced valid XML only (because otherwise it would be impossible to map XML to a programming language easily... at least this is the single but pivotal point in favor of XML well-formed correctness... barring also the fact that a complex parser that accepts a "liberal" input is something too much prone to bugs and security exploits...)
Tim writes a full paragraph using "Bozo" as a term to mark people who writes tool that produces broken xml. Also he writes "Anyone who can’t make a syndication feed that’s well-formed XML is an incompetent fool."...
IIRC (and I underline IIRC), Bozo in UK-English is quite a strong term, at the same level of fool/drunkard and idiot. Not at the same level of the three terms before (more "esplicit") but not something you would say to a complete stranger. Sylpheed "Bozo Filter" (Sylpheed is a mailer for the Gnome environment on Linux/Unix) is also translated in Italian with the same term "Idiot Filter"...
Regarding "Bozo" is definitively offensive if as a term in your culture is offensive. It is something like a word with a "borderline" meaning. Maybe for US-English Bozo is not such a strong word... but look at this page as well: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SetTheBozoBit
This is outside the fact that I would like that every single tool and author produced valid XML only (because otherwise it would be impossible to map XML to a programming language easily... at least this is the single but pivotal point in favor of XML well-formed correctness... barring also the fact that a complex parser that accepts a "liberal" input is something too much prone to bugs and security exploits...)
I'd certainly agree that Mark can stir the pot better than most, but what I see here, and have seen on atom-syntax from the sidelines, is one person advocating his position the way he knows how among many doing the same. Sometimes being blunt isn't appreciated, but gets things done. Whether or not they're the things you want ... that's a different story. Regardless, I sense a great deal more impish-ness and mirth than you seem to in these interactions. As for Dave, he clearly can't stand being needled and that just makes some want to needle him more. But that's just me.
Somehow I knew this would end up on Don's blog, so I came here to comment :p
Basically, I'm a nobody, but still I have to say that this is evil. Pilgrim's usual criticisms of Winer are well-deserved and overdue, and things like the Winer Watcher are just childish, but this is evil. It's breaking the web.
Basically, I'm a nobody, but still I have to say that this is evil. Pilgrim's usual criticisms of Winer are well-deserved and overdue, and things like the Winer Watcher are just childish, but this is evil. It's breaking the web.
And probably the second clue of Pilgrim's imminent Winerization, after the conspiracy theories on aggregator makers' blogs. "We are all actively becoming that which we most intently observe."
David and Evan, what ticked me off is guilt-by-association. Mark has reasons to be upset at Dave from their past exchanges and they deserve grief from each other. I have also written harsh words against Mark in the past and deserve whatever harsh words I get in return. But exchanging harsh words and taking actions not just against me but those who read my words upsets me.
Ok. But the post you referenced has little to nothing to do with Dave that I can tell - all syndication roads do not lead to scripting.com - and I'm not sure what you mean by 'taking actions' in the context of either your post or his.
I'm just trying to point out that _perhaps_ Mark, Tim, Danny and I'm sure others, occassionally inject a bit of sarcasm/irony/wry humor/other-leavening-context into their work, and that taking it to a literal extreme might be a bit dramatic.
I'm just trying to point out that _perhaps_ Mark, Tim, Danny and I'm sure others, occassionally inject a bit of sarcasm/irony/wry humor/other-leavening-context into their work, and that taking it to a literal extreme might be a bit dramatic.
Evan, if rejecting all visitors from a particular referrer who is clearly not a spammer is not 'taking actions', I don't know what is. I am an engineer and I don't want to see technology used in harmful ways such as discouraging freedom of expression or exchange of different opinions.
I agree that scripting.com is not the capital of syndication. It's not about Dave's site and it's not even about that post. Maybe I am different from others, but I take offense at that type of actions even when its not directed at me.
As to the dramatics, all I have done is removing his blog from my blogroll. I am sure he is a nice guy to his friends and he has made good contribution to the Web and syndication community. But, at least for me, his antics drowns all that.
I understand the points you are making, but my point is that while rest of us may have a bit of fun with our code, I think Mark's intention was to hurt instead of having fun. Maybe I am hallucinating as I often do. Maybe not.
We'll never know because Mark has never apologized or explain his antics in the past except acting as if nothing happened after the events. Even his personal posts which I used to enjoy have faded because they started to read like posts a troll might write to see how people react.
To sum it up, I had enough of Mark and I will not be reading his posts anymore nor post about them. Sad but less stressful.
I agree that scripting.com is not the capital of syndication. It's not about Dave's site and it's not even about that post. Maybe I am different from others, but I take offense at that type of actions even when its not directed at me.
As to the dramatics, all I have done is removing his blog from my blogroll. I am sure he is a nice guy to his friends and he has made good contribution to the Web and syndication community. But, at least for me, his antics drowns all that.
I understand the points you are making, but my point is that while rest of us may have a bit of fun with our code, I think Mark's intention was to hurt instead of having fun. Maybe I am hallucinating as I often do. Maybe not.
We'll never know because Mark has never apologized or explain his antics in the past except acting as if nothing happened after the events. Even his personal posts which I used to enjoy have faded because they started to read like posts a troll might write to see how people react.
To sum it up, I had enough of Mark and I will not be reading his posts anymore nor post about them. Sad but less stressful.
Don Wrote:
As to the dramatics, all I have done is removing his blog from my blogroll. I am sure he is a nice guy to his friends and he has made good contribution to the Web and syndication community. But, at least for me, his antics drowns all that.
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Don, this is _exactly_ _why_ Mark's action is suicide and why you should not be too angry. You disapprove his policy, you disapprove his being a provocator that does not want to answer to his action? Then you stop reading him, talking about him, blogrolling him. (For a better effect you could put offline all the links to his site from your blog :) ...). That is how Mark goes rapidly towards his blog game-over (if at least he cares about his internet persona and his part in the blogosphere).
In the end everyone has the right to do what they want with their own referrers... if they start the trend of junking referrers, they are damaging only themselves. If you say "Davide Inglima Stated Bullshit Here -> Link", and I block your readers, readers will not be able to read my part of the reasoning, and that is where YOU win, because your readers will tend to think that: "Don is right, Davide Inglima has something to hide if he blocked Don".
The referral-block meme is a suicide one.
Now, Don... there is no point in getting angry like that.
Web is a collaboration and communication tool BY NATURE. You see it because blogging is successful, irc is successful, e-mail mailing lists are successful, wiki is succesful and opensource is successful as well.
Technologies and people that are keen on collaboration and communication instead are getting a solid base. Internet is not only about internetworking between different kinds of communication technologies, but also using that technologies to say anything to anyone. If someone exits from this paradigm, he automatically decides about the death of his own internet avatar. The only thing he can do is to create his own "small internet bubble" where he will be alone and that will continue only until he has interest and time and resource to spend in it.
As to the dramatics, all I have done is removing his blog from my blogroll. I am sure he is a nice guy to his friends and he has made good contribution to the Web and syndication community. But, at least for me, his antics drowns all that.
++++
Don, this is _exactly_ _why_ Mark's action is suicide and why you should not be too angry. You disapprove his policy, you disapprove his being a provocator that does not want to answer to his action? Then you stop reading him, talking about him, blogrolling him. (For a better effect you could put offline all the links to his site from your blog :) ...). That is how Mark goes rapidly towards his blog game-over (if at least he cares about his internet persona and his part in the blogosphere).
In the end everyone has the right to do what they want with their own referrers... if they start the trend of junking referrers, they are damaging only themselves. If you say "Davide Inglima Stated Bullshit Here -> Link", and I block your readers, readers will not be able to read my part of the reasoning, and that is where YOU win, because your readers will tend to think that: "Don is right, Davide Inglima has something to hide if he blocked Don".
The referral-block meme is a suicide one.
Now, Don... there is no point in getting angry like that.
Web is a collaboration and communication tool BY NATURE. You see it because blogging is successful, irc is successful, e-mail mailing lists are successful, wiki is succesful and opensource is successful as well.
Technologies and people that are keen on collaboration and communication instead are getting a solid base. Internet is not only about internetworking between different kinds of communication technologies, but also using that technologies to say anything to anyone. If someone exits from this paradigm, he automatically decides about the death of his own internet avatar. The only thing he can do is to create his own "small internet bubble" where he will be alone and that will continue only until he has interest and time and resource to spend in it.
David, thanks for the long reply, probably more than I deserve in my short-fuse mode. All good thoughts. I'll chew on them as I torture myself with PInvoke. Yikes.
Mark is a serious prick. Anyone following the Winer watcher or atom-syntax or the latest BS story about Tim Bray and XML can see this.
Let's hope his new baby softens him up a bit! Or keeps him too busy to post!
Let's hope his new baby softens him up a bit! Or keeps him too busy to post!
Don... my latest blogpost took from this story to create my view on "Contracts", or better those unwritten rules (netiquette maybe?) that define the interaction between bloggers (and netizens, and people in real life)... http://limacat.blogspot.com/
I admit the post is quite confused in the end, but at least try to give it a look...
Ciao
I admit the post is quite confused in the end, but at least try to give it a look...
Ciao
For what it's worth ... Mark is in my view a puppy. Geez, I feel like grandpa here ... I remember when (20 years ago) there were similar exchanges over standardizing floating point representations, C runtime library routines, etc. Before there was windows there were years of Unix wars -- deja vu anybody?
A few years back I remember one of my young (2 years removed from college) programmers being sooo excited about Java because there were these things called JDBC that let him write code to connect to databases. His worldview never existed *before* the advent of Java and was surprised to find out that JDBC was simply a wrapper on connector technology that existed prior to Gameboy's.
My point -- many of us have the kneejerk tendancy to make things personal (and petty). But effective collaboration (and standards setting) takes patience, communication, accomodation, and most importantly time.
History continually repeats itself as new technologies push themselves onto the top of the stack and the new, young, batch of puppies comes along and proceeds to pee on the floor.
FYI, my favorite do'er and show'er right now is Diego Duval. He continually tries to diffuse the rhetoric and simply produces good ideas (and working tools).
A few years back I remember one of my young (2 years removed from college) programmers being sooo excited about Java because there were these things called JDBC that let him write code to connect to databases. His worldview never existed *before* the advent of Java and was surprised to find out that JDBC was simply a wrapper on connector technology that existed prior to Gameboy's.
My point -- many of us have the kneejerk tendancy to make things personal (and petty). But effective collaboration (and standards setting) takes patience, communication, accomodation, and most importantly time.
History continually repeats itself as new technologies push themselves onto the top of the stack and the new, young, batch of puppies comes along and proceeds to pee on the floor.
FYI, my favorite do'er and show'er right now is Diego Duval. He continually tries to diffuse the rhetoric and simply produces good ideas (and working tools).
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Copyright © 2006 Don Park
